Zimmerman the sequel? What about Parental Responsibility?

Last Friday night in the early hours of the morning, around 2 am, Merritt Landry, a building inspector for the city of New Orleans shot and critically injured an intruder in his property.  That intruder turned out to be 14 year-old black boy, Marshall Coulter,  a young teen already awaiting trial for “stealing stuff” as his older brother David Coulter 23, said;

“He would steal — he was a professional thief, sure,” David Coulter said. “But he would never pick up a gun, not in a million years. He was too scared to aim a gun at the grass, let alone aim it at a person. No way. Before he’ll ever pick up a gun, he’ll be your friend first.”

Mr. Merritt who was at home with his pregnant wife and little daughter was alerted that someone had intruded by his dog’s barking when he went outside to investigate he the teen who had scaled his fence and was approaching the home.  According to Mr. Merritt he said “Freeze” at which point the teen reached into his waistband and Mr. Merritt shot him, once striking the teen in the head.

The teen is in critical condition at a local hospital, doctors fear that if he survives he will suffer some brain damage.  He was the 7th of 8 kids, his father had died three years ago of stomach cancer, leaving the oldest brother David to take care of the kids.  The older brother said that Marshall, the young teen was on medication for attention deficit hyperactive disorder and he and his mother had tried their best to keep him out of trouble, with no success. Read more:


As an ironic twist a neighbor had observed the teen with another teen riding bikes in the neighborhood casing homes, he was in fact standing in front of Mr. Merritt at the time.  The neighbor who observed this though it suspicious and thought about calling the police but did not because he was afraid that they would think he was racially profiling the 2 teen as they were black.

Mr. Merritt has been charged with Attempted Second Degree Murder, and is out on bail.   The City has suspended him without pay pending resolution of the case.

Andrew Branca who I have quoted and linked to extensively has written an article about the event and the applicable laws for Louisiana over at Legal Insurrection that is worth reading, for a better understanding on the laws of the State.

I am not going to linger longer on the case, as most of the information is early reporting and as the Zimmerman case has shown early reporting and biases tend to skew early media reporting and this case is not any different.  As some of you might imagine, some of the same people who are against Zimmerman have jumped on the bandwagon calling this another case racial profiling and racism.

I will continue to follow-up on the case as developments arise but I want to talk about a subject that is contentious and seldom address, Parental Responsibility or duties.  A quick search on Google on parental responsibility will yield 13.5 million hits, but most deal with legal responsibilities as ascribed by government which can be summarized as follows:

  • to have the child living with him or her or otherwise to regulate the child’s residence;
  • to appropriately control, direct or guide the child’s upbringing;
  • if the child is not living with him or her, to maintain personal relations and contact with the child on a regular basis;
  • to act as the child’s legal representative.

As we see can the duties described are pretty dryly described and very broad and open to varied interpretations.  As with morality parental responsibilities are something left up the parents and whatever their interpretation of that is.  How does one go about achieving those 4 objectives and produce good upstanding citizens? After all is that not the responsibility of every parent or at the very least the aim?

I am father of two young men, one 21 years-old the other one just turned 18, I also have a little princess that is 6, I have some first hand experience of the issues that affect a parent as such I took my responsibility very seriously.  I did not have my father or mother with me when I was growing up, so I have little experience on it took to be a good parent.  My wife was the daughter of divorced parents so she also had her issues when it came to parenting and the responsibility of parents in raising children.

Without direct role models, we could have turned to one of the thousands of books on parenting available but we did not do so, instead we decided to work together and use our limited experiences but with a common goal, to do the best we can.  We both made our share of mistakes when we were teenagers and we vowed to at the very least prevent those same mistakes in our children.  I am happy to say that so far both our boys turned out in a way that any parent can be proud off, and we certainly are proud of our 2  young men.

How did we do it? We sacrificed for our children, when we moved we researched the area, the schools,  the neighborhoods, crime statistics and having bi-racial children demographics. We attempted to ensure that our kids were well-rounded in all aspects.

Now, I mentioned the case of the 14 year-old because there are 2 quick questions that I immediately thought about once I read the story.  Where were the parents and why was he outside at 2 am unsupervised?  Reading a little more and getting some of the limited background of the young teen, it made my first 2 questions even more grave.

Let’s examine 2 recent cases involving young teens in which both ended up getting shot, one fatally.  I am talking about Trayvon Martin and now Marshall Coulter.  Both were black teens, both were shot at a very young age, both had difficulties at school, both did not have a father  living with them, both had multiple run-ins with the authorities in Martin’s case the school police had concealed his misdeeds, both made terrible decisions that led directly to their demise.

There is a pervasive need to not speak evil of the dead or in cases of young people their parents.  Had the two teens not gotten hurt, the parents and their parenting skills would be questioned, but because they both ended up seriously injured we do not, instead we take the complete opposite approach and put the grieving parents in a pedestal because of their loss.  I can understand not wanting to add to the grief of the parents or to kick them when they are down, as the saying goes but in doing so we compound the problem as we miss an opportunity to confront a problem head-on with the consequences of inaction so clearly demonstrated.

In Martin’s case he was on his third suspension of the school year, his mother had kicked him out of the house a month prior, at the time he was shot, he was sent to stay with his father’s girlfriend to stay, while his father was attending a convention nearby. He was left that weekend with no supervision and this was his punishment for getting suspended from school for a week?   Now his father is invited to speak to Congress, is travelling around the country and held as a role model of fatherhood of the black family.  Sybrina, Martin’s mother is likewise celebrated and held in such high esteem being compared to other civil rights icons, like Rosa Parks.

But is the fact that their son got killed under what some would call suspicious circumstances, enough to declare them the paragons of parenthood? What about the hundreds of parents of those killed in Chicago or anywhere else in the US?

Instead, why are we not asking what did they as parents do for kids as they turned south?  Why did Tracy Martin knowing the issues of his son, not provide more supervision?  Why did Sybrina kick Mr. Martin from her house, again?  He was on his 3rd suspension of the school year, so for discipline he was shipped out and left to the case of the fathers girlfriend.   What did they do after his first suspension, his second, did they just give up?  If so, then why are we deifying them.

With the Coulter case, very little is known so far, but the fact that young Marshall was a criminal is not even denied.  So the question becomes how much was done to help the young teen to mend his ways?  Was the family profiteering from the young teens exploits?

It is possible to do everything right and still have problems with your kids?  Of course it is, but this should be the exception not the rule.  When people were describing Mr. Martin as a typical because he was using and dealing drugs, vandalism, using all types of epitaphs and getting suspended from school, I cringed.  That is not should it ever be the norm and if you are a parent and think that this is the norm for teenagers in today’s society, you should examine your parenting skills.

It has become a cliché to say how important a job is to be a parent.  and many take it for granted.  Yet, it is perhaps the most important job that you will have as an adult.  It takes sacrifice and lots of hard work it not something to be taken lightly, kids are treated like accessories.  Becoming a parent is not a decision that should be made without taking into consideration what it would entail.

Parental responsibility for kids, needs to be addressed.  To often due to circumstances parents fail in ensuring that one major aspect of their responsibility is taken care of.  Our children are a reflection of us, when we fail our kids the results can be catastrophic to the kids or others.

All 50 states now have laws that can hold the parents responsible for civil damages of acts committed by their children, in varying degrees  but the issue remains, as people seldom use the laws and the courts in their discretion don’t enforce the laws on the books.  And in cases where the perpetrator is injured or kill, what use would it do.

Opponents feel that the laws are intrusive and invade the privacy of the families point out that there are other influences in the kids life that contribute to their delinquency, like social, cultural and economic reasons.

But anytime that there are attempts to address this, the big entertainment interest, and their supporters fight those efforts and resist any attempt to address the issue.  It is a similar story when social reasons are addressed.  The economic reasons are just are hard to fix as the fact that they are a direct result of the other two.  Creating a vicious circle that no ones wants to talk about directly, outside of the usual soundbites or another government program bound to fail as it does not address all the issues simultaneously.

There are not easy solutions but one we can do is not elevate those responsible for bad parenting, who have obviously failed at their most important responsibility as saints or role models.  Doing that sends the completely opposite lesson to all those parents that need help or are failing in theirs.



  1. I am glad that you are raising this issue of parental responsibility.

    I would argue that in Marshall’s case it might be necessary to give the mother some slack. She lost her husband to cancer and obviously she has been doing it tough, and I see this as the opposite of $ybrina Fulton. Her oldest son David has been helping to raise the younger children.

    The real difference from what I can see here is that young Marshall Coulter was a difficult child who has ADD or perhaps that is ADHD. It seems like he was not getting treatment for his condition, and he was out of control.

    I have seen stories here in Australia where mothers are struggling with their out of control children. The only thing that has worked for these children is to send them to a form of boot camp where they get tough love and they tend to settle down. I suspect that Marshall Coulter was a child who needed that kind of tough love.

    I do not want to make excuses for Marshall Coulter, rather I want to try and understand what turned him into a professional thief. There are many questions to be asked about what went wrong.

    I do know that when sub-teens lose a parent they take it vary hard and as a result they can go off the rails. It happened in my husband’s family when my MIL passed away. We were about age 25 at the time of her death, and my husband’s brothers and sisters were still quite young, (the youngest was about 14 at the time). It also happened when my sister passed away and she left behind a young daughter at a similar age of 14. I do not think my niece went feral but she was well on the way from what I understand of the situation. Maybe, withou his father being around Marshall Coulter simply went off the rails.

    I got a vibe when reading comments from his brother David, that is a vibe of resignation because Marshall was always in trouble. If Marshall was known to have ADHD and he was not getting treatment for the condition, it might be a given reason for him being out of control. Parents in such a situation often feel helpless because they cannot cope with the problems.

    I raised three sons and none of them were perfect angels. Yes they almost got into some very serious trouble during their teens. I am not going on a guilt trip because of their decision-making. I do regret that I was pushed into the workforce and was not an at home mother for them. However, I have to decide whether or not such regrets are valid when my sons were working part time jobs and earning money at the time.

    Whilst I would defend Marshall Coulter’s mother and older brother, I do not feel the same about $ybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin. In that case I see a whole set of different circumstances. First, various family members were involved in gangs in Miami and elsewhere. Tracy Martin is pictured making a gang sign!! Tracy Martin was someone who had been using drugs, possibly even used Lean. $ybrina Fulton has gone by the name of Miss Candy!! Neither parent is a good example as far as being parents are concerned. $ybrina allowed her former husband to take his child with him when he left her to shack up with another woman. Then that boy returned to her home after he was forced to leave the home of that woman. She then kicked him out and he started living with his uncle. The cousin is also into the drug scene, which is obvious because of the picture taken the day before Trayvon died.

    Then there are other particulars about the Fulton or should I say Johnson family to consider, especially when the uncle was charged with murder, and the cousin died probably from an overdose of cocaine.

    Parental responsibility is very much a key in these stories. One child was getting out of control because the mother was not coping. The other was getting out of control because he had his dead beat dad giving him a bad example on such matters as guns, drugs and lack of respect for women.

  2. Reblogged this on A world at war and commented:
    I have left a very long comment as a reply on Bori’s blog. I do consider this to be a very good topic. At this point, without knowing more about the Coulter family I would be more cautious in regard to whether or not the mother was being irresponsible. That family has it way tougher than either $ybrina Fulton or Tracy Martin, and it has been left up to the oldest son to help raise the children because their father passed away as a result of cancer.

  3. You comment about Coulter is a very good point, that is why I try to not talk about him as much, since early in the case and many other facts need to be discovered. My concerned with Coulter was more general, as I have seen many kids like Coulter, hanging out late at night getting into trouble.

    While it is true based on what we know that the family suffered a tragedy when they lost the father 3 years ago but my concern is this; should we always make excuses for bad situations and was he a problem prior to that? Life is tough the parents made a decision to have 8 kids how well were they providing for them.

    As I wrote kids are a reflection of their parents, and many times the kids pay for the sins of the parents. It is difficult to raise one child, 8 is cannot be any easier. Coulter the 7 of 8 kids so he had six older siblings all vying for attention of their parents, and that was before his father died. How much attention, love and affection was he receiving under those circumstances? I’ll be following up as more information becomes available.

    • I have no desire to make excuses for the crimes. My main concern about the Coulter story is that the teenager Marshall was always getting into trouble and neither the mother or the brother/father figure have been able to cope with that situation.

      One of my sons has a partner with a son(hers, not his) who is mildly autistic. He has behaviour problems. My son has made some impact, and I think that this has been good for the child and the mother. If the child had remained uncontrollable then more issues would arise as he got older.

      My concern is simply that I think that Marshall’s mother was battling with trying to cope with the problems associated with this child, as well as coping with widowhood and the rest of it.

      I actually agree that there are too many teenagers who go roaming and then get themselves into trouble.

      (As an aside, I think somewhere I wrote about one of the shootings in Sydney where a 19 year old had been shot in the neck. Sadly, this morning came the news that there had been another shooting. He was killed in that shooting overnight. This is very sad. However, he was a Comanchero, a member of a bikie gang).

      • Aussie, I was not speaking directly to you but more in a general sense. To many times adults put themselves in situations that ultimately end up affecting the kids in a negative manner, but then point to those same situations as reasons for others to excuse their present circumstances.

        I will give one example that you may have heard of, the Octomon, the lady who gave birth by in-vitro fertilization to octuplets, while being unmarried and having already 6 small children already.

        Those kids face an uncertain future, and are already depending on government, or should I say us, for subsistence.

        That of course is an extreme case, but their are so many cases like that.

      • Bori, Octomom is the perfect example of the opposite situations that I have described. She is a one parent family and the families I described are a two parent family.

        You make an excellent point when one considers that type of family.

        I can give another example of a single mother raising multiple children via multiple fathers. So far the children are well behaved, but I wonder what will happen when they hit those teen years.

        In my examples, there is only one family with a child who has medical issues, and the child is Downs Syndrome. The discipline within the family makes a real difference.

        I have not heard of Octomom for a while, but the last I heard she was not coping all that well. So… who knows whether in the future we will hear of her children causing trouble.

        I do like your approach to this subject because I think working through the issue is important.

      • I have mentioned before that I grew up in the ghetto of Harlem in New York, and I saw many young girl get pregnant, then spit out a baby every year by multiple fathers until overwhelmed, those kids grow up without parents to speak of, and all the TM’s or the parents of TM’s of today. I do admit that in some cases the mothers did their best and the kids turned out alright, but that was the exception, certainly not the rule.

      • Yes, I know what you mean. There is a girl who is extended family and she has been doing the same thing. For the time being those children are very good children…. at least the last time I saw them they were well-behaved. I personally do not condone such behaviour….

        We have similar problems over here with girls choosing to have babies by multiple fathers. So far most of these children turn out ok.

        It is the Middle Eastern types who join gangs who are the problem.

    • I think that you cannot overlook Marshall’s medical/psychiatric condition. That condition means that he was a kid out of control. You can be sure that the parents had a tough time controlling him.

      People think that there is a problem with large families. I disagree that this is a factor. First, my husband is the oldest of 7, I am the youngest of 4.

      Second, I have known several familes with greater than 6, and as many as 17 babies born (in that family one baby died from cot death). With such large families it is the older children who take a hand in raising the younger children. In the case of the family that had 17 children, by the time the youngest came along the oldest were adults and had moved out of home. They managed because of the discipline that they instilled into the children.

      Third, in my family tree is one family where there were 22 offspring. This was in the 19th century. Sixth, my maternal grandmother and grandfather were born into large families, 12 children and 13 children in those families, although some died in infancy. On my grandfather’s side, his father was killed in a workplace accident – he was hit by a train. My great-grandfather was 5 when his father died. Survival is a strange thing because in the early 20th century there was no such thing as worker’s compensation. These were families where the oldest were adults when the younger ones were born.

      I should add here, that in almost every case where there were large families with over 6 children, I never heard of any of them getting into trouble. When I lived in Sydney there were several large families attending my church, and in every case the children were well disciplined most of the time. There simply was no trouble at all.

      I do not believe that family size is critical. I would bet that they were a family where there as some discipline, but with Marshall they had a problem because of his medical/psychological condition. If they could not afford medication to treat the problem then that would have been worse.

      The older boy’s exasperation was really telling. He was trying to cope with his brother but he was failing.

      I do get the impression that the Coulter family is the exact opposite of they $ybrina Fulton/Tracy Martin scenario.

      • My point about Coulter being the 7th of 8 was not the size of the family, but that there were also older siblings to help in the family.

        As for the size of the family, I think it is a disservice to compare large families from our time to large families today, Things are very different.

      • I do think that we are not necessarily talking past each other. My own interpretation of the comments by the older boy was simply that he was doing his best in a difficult to control situation.

        I was also talking about large families that I know “today”. The largest family that I knew was “contemporary” and there was one boy from the family in my class…. even when I skipped a class there was another member of the family. It was weird because for the 4 of us, there was a member of that family in the school, and it went right down to the starting class – grade preps in those days!!

        However, when I lived in Sydney, prior to living in Canberra, and returning to NSW, I knew several families who had more than 6 children. None of them were getting into real trouble. Of the ones I did know who were getting into some form of trouble, they came from smaller families where both parents were working and were simply not around to keep an eye on the teenagers……

        My comment is solely about Marshall’s ADHD. He was unruly because of his behavioural problems, but that should have been controlled by his medication. That leaves the company that he was keeping. The boy was out of control, and it seems at least one other member of the family was feeling exasperated with him.

        The big thing to note is that Marshall Coulter was not like Trayvon Martin. He was a younger boy and yes getting into mischief, but he was not attacking the homeowner, which is what Trayvon Martin was doing when he was killed.

      • I endorse all of those comments made by that blogger. He is spot on with his analysis.

        I agree it is very hard on David Coulter because he has had to give up so much to look after his siblings. The way he handles his little sister shows a loving young man…. even as he gives the bird.

      • The conversation between you and bori is not only interesting and educational but shows how sensible people can make points without being offensive. Chip Bennett will do this at Stately Manor with even the most uninformed angry fool. I do not know how he keeps his cool.

        You two are certainly getting to know each other and I admire that. I readily admit that both of you know a lot more than I ever did about this issue so I am sitting on the sidelines, watching and learning. No point in showing my ignorance but I just had to interject the deal with the 31 year old beauty so I did not feel totally left out of this conversation. I decided to tell her no but she continues to call. Oh well. I will be 67 on Saturday so I should be thrilled that such a young lady would even notice me.

        Imagine all of us actually meeting some place for a few days and having our own panel discussion. Would that be cool?

      • It would be very cool if we could all meet.

        I have to say that Bori seems to me to be an old friend. The discussion is well worth the effort because what we are explaining is in reality the difference in our experiences.

        In Bori’s experience he sees more of these one parent families where children are out of the control.

        In my own experience, I have seen a lot of large families with two parents!!

        Bori supplied a link to a blogger who is closely following the case, and I fould it to be educational. At the same time, that blogger made the point that I had already tried to make, relating to when young Marshall went off the rails. I hate being right, especially in this case, but it turns out that Marshall got out of control after his father passed away.

        Now here’s the go, it is not the first time that I have heard about a young person going wild after the death of a parent. I know this from first hand experience, in my case it was my in-laws. My mother-in-law passed away when several of my husband’s brothers and sisters were still in school. It only took one outsider to offer a substance for comfort and several of them were smoking. They were hostile to my FIL, blaming him for her death (breast cancer). Even though they did not go off the rails by stealing etc., they did go off the rails in other ways. However, all is well with most of them. There is one exception and he has remained aloof from the family.

        There was one other large family where the father died from cancer, but I did not hear of any of them going off the rails. I guess the environment makes a big difference.

        I have less experience of what Bori describes about New York with regard to those one parent families, but I can state there are a lot of them here.

        However, what I have noticed is that in these one parent families, there are more difficulties requiring intervention from DOCS (Dept of Community Services). There have been some really horrible examples of what happens to young children when the mothers are constantly swapping partners. The children usually end up either bashed or dead. Young Keisha was a victim of this kind of circumstance.

        The case we have been discussing highlights the horrors of a large one parent family, especially where one or other parent has passed away. This is usually the point when these disasters happen.

        I do in fact feel sorry for Mrs Coulter and especially for David Coulter. Life has been very tough on the family. It is the exact opposite of the middle class background of Trayvon Martin.

      • My contribution is that my youngest, now 20, lost her Mom when she was 10, I was left to raise her alone and gave up a large international newspaper business to do it . She was a straight A student. In addition to regular school, I also home schooled her in America history, the Federalist Papers and the Constitution as well as SC history and the Ware between the States. I refused to let the schools teach revisionist history 2 or 3 days every day. I insisted on meeting all or teacher together at least once a week.

        In May she married the guy she had met in church when they were both about 13 or 14. They refused to live together so sex was left to the marriage day… no drugs, alc0hol or tobacco. She went to USF in Tampa for 3 years and will finish her degree at KU in Kansas. Her husband graduated fr0m Southeast Bible College in Lakeland Florida. No one had ever done that but over time, they enjoyed hearing me rip apart what they were supposed to teach.

        She is a 24/7 Christian and has been to Haiti and the Dominican Republic to do missionary work. I think I did a pretty good j0b with no help. I even read up about what do when she first started menustrasting. I did ask f0r help with the tampons.

        She was more important to me than my business and I made that decision alone giving up hundreds of newspaper clients. I never looked back and my clients respected and admired me for it. All is well.

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      • I am the eldest of six. My Dad is one of 13 and my Mom was one of 9. They grew up in an era of dirt farming and it was necessary to have children to work on the farm. I love large families but that did not work out for me, but I do have two daughters. I will be 67 Saturday. Recently a really nice looking lady asked me if I would consider helping her have a child. She is 31 but I did seriously consider it.

      • You lucky b…! LOL.. I had told her no but I might rethink that. At some point, I will need a caregiver and she has offered to be one. It might be a fair deal for both of us.

        I am a cook but she is just as good as me.. loves gourmet cooking. She stayed with me for 3 or 4 days and cleaned my entire house spotless. 5 BR and 4 Baths.

      • Yes, and large families are not the cause of the kind of issues experienced by Marshall Coulter. He would have been a handful in any size family 🙂

        BTW my mum was one of 7 and my father was youngest of 3. The middle son in his family died at around 18 months of age from meningitis or something like that.

  4. New change.org petition from Tracy and Sybrina filled with some serious whopper sized lies!

    Petition by
    Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton with Change for Trayvon

    Last year, our son Trayvon Martin was stalked, chased down and killed by George Zimmerman, and Zimmerman faced no punishment whatsoever. That’s in large part because Florida is one of at least 21 states with some form of ‘Stand Your Ground’ law, which enables people like George Zimmerman to claim self-defense.

    We’re calling on 21 governors whose states have some form of ‘Stand Your Ground’ laws to review those laws and amend them so that people who instigate conflicts — people like George Zimmerman — won’t be able to use these laws to get away with murder.

    ‘Stand Your Ground’ was never meant to give aggressors the opportunity to get away with murder, but that is what happened when our son, Trayvon Benjamin Martin was killed. After Trayvon’s death, law enforcement used the law as an excuse to refuse to arrest George Zimmerman. Even worse, the jury in the case was instructed to think of what Zimmerman did as self-defense, even though Zimmerman ignored instructions from the police and instigated conflict with our son, who was just trying to get home to his father.

    We are shocked and heartbroken by the jury’s decision to allow our son’s killer to go free. Despite our despair, we must honor Trayvon’s legacy by doing all that we can to protect other young people from being targeted, pursued, and senselessly murdered.

    We are not the only ones calling for ‘Stand Your Ground’ laws to be reviewed. President Obama spoke out on the need for review, and prominent Republicans like Senator John McCain have joined him. This is not a Democrat or Republican issue, it’s not ‘black’ or ‘white’ issue, it’s a wrong and right issue. This is a matter of making sure that no other family will ever have to go through what we have been through. No parents should ever have to know what it feels like to watch your child’s killer walk free.

    Here in Florida, we are pushing for an amendment to Florida’s ‘Stand Your Ground’ law. Sign our petition to call on all at least 21 governors to review their laws and consider similar amendments so that they can protect children in their states, just as we wish Florida would have protected Trayvon.

    We want to say thank you to all of you who have stood up for our son. Because of all of your efforts, Trayvon’s life is celebrated all over the world. Please continue to stand with us as we fight to ensure that his legacy is to leave behind a safer and more peaceful world for all our sons and daughters.


    • I have tried to comprehend to empathize with the family, after all regardless of everything they did lose a child. Yet, the amount of delusion on that statement and others signify a large sense of denial about what I am sure they know happened that night. It is easy to say they are doing for the money, but that ship has sailed.

      They must know or should know that what they are doing is going to affect people that are not related to the case. Those circumstances can be severe or deadly but their continued refusal to accept the truth, is wasting an opportunity to do something that will make Trayvon’s name worth remembering.

      I don’t know if this is all the family’s doing, or if they are getting bad advice and influence from other agenda driven people. Right now I just want them to shut up, their self importance and the one they are placing on TM is annoying.

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